Episode 223: Jan Sibbersen - Keys to a Championship Mindset in Sport, Business, and Life (Part 1)
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Hawaii IRONMAN World Championship swim course record holder, Jans Sibbersen, shares the keys to achieving a focused mindset for success in sport, business and life.
Matt welcomes the founder of wetsuit company Sailfish, and Hawaii Ironman World Championship swim course record-holder, Jan Sibbersen, to the show.
Part 1 of this 2 part series covers Sibbersen’s road to conquering the Kona swim record in a comeback performance at the age of 43 and how his swimming background influenced his success in the water and inspired him to build a business from the ground up.
With Sailfish, a company he started 15 years ago, now expanding into the U.S. market, Sibbersen takes us through the lessons he gleaned from a career in competitive sport and business, and how those lessons have influenced his leadership and his company’s growth.
Topics they discuss include:
Sibbersen’s foundation of swimming and his eventual transition to triathlons.
The driving force and frame of mind behind the quest for a comeback and a shot at the Kona swim record.
The parallels between entrepreneurs and triathletes and how to apply the lessons of one career to the other.
(49:47) “if you're well prepared, and if you've done your homework, there's really not that much to worry about on race day…you know if you've put in the work if you've rested well, that there's a very, very good likelihood that you're going to have a great race. It's so similar to the world of business.”
The brick-by-brick approach: the benefits and challenges of growing a business organically, without external capital.
(42:05) “I liked the freedom of not having any investor's...being able to make my own decisions, and do the things that were right for the long-term growth of the company, and maybe not for short-term profitability.”
Important traits to effective leadership and establishing strong team dynamics.
(57:39) “You need to be able to steer the tempo or the speed of a team. So I think when there is quieter times…you need to let go”
Managing and mitigating adversity and stress.
(57:39) “I think growth pretty much only happens when there is a healthy amount of stress.”
Strategizing growth and expansion into new territory.
Tips for entrepreneurs and small business owners.
The goal of this discussion is to understand the mindset of a high-performer in both sport and life and to apply the behavior and principles to your endeavors.
Jan Sibbersen Career Highlights
-German National Swim Team (1990 to 2000)
-Harvard University: Bachelor of Arts (B.A.), Economics (2000)
-Goldman Sachs New York and Frankfurt: Financial Analyst (2000 and 2002)
-IRONMAN Hawaii World Championships: Swim course record, 46:29min (2018)
-IRONMAN Hawaii World Championships: “First out of Water” (2001-2004)
-IRONMAN Germany: Swim time record holder, 42:17min (2004)
-IRONMAN Germany: “First out of Water” (2002-2004)
-IRONMAN Canada: "First out of Water" (2005,2006,2008)
-IRONMAN USA: "First out of Water" (2006)
-IRONMAN France: "First out of Water" (2007)
-Managed Patrick Lange: two-time IRONMAN World Champion (2016-2021)
Episode Timestamps
0:02-05:44 Introduction and Matt's Personal Picks
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5:59- The Meat and Potatoes - Jan Sibbersen - Keys to a Championship Mindset in Sport, Business and Life (Part 1)
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Full Transcript
Matt Dixon 00:02
I'm Matt Dixon, and welcome to the Purple Patch podcast. The mission of Purple Patch is to empower and educate every human being to reach their athletic potential through the lens of athletic potential, you reach your human potential. The purpose of this podcast is to help time-starved people everywhere, integrate sport into life.
Matt Dixon 00:23
Hi there, Matt Dixon here. And guess what? We care about performance. We want you to get faster, amplify your health and help you do the things that you love to do as long as you can. And so does the team at InsideTracker. And with the insights that you receive from their biometrics gathering, as well as the counsel from their team of performance experts, you managed to get the precise focus that you need to get the most out of your efforts that you're putting in, all you need to do is head to insidetracker.com/purplepatch and you can use the code purplepatchpro20, that's purplepatchpro two zero, and you get 20% off everything at the store. All right now, it is our very first video podcast. And so we get to say, let's get on with the show. And enjoy. I hope you have a good time with it.
Matt Dixon 01:23
And welcome to the Purple Patch podcast. As ever, your host, Matt Dixon, and welcome to the very first Purple Patch show in which we are giving a couple of options of how to consume. You have the first way, which is the old traditional way, the good way, you can take advantage of listening to us on audio at the favorite place where you like to listen to your podcasts. Or for the first time today, we are hosting a video production of this. What do they call it now, V pod? I have no idea. Anyway, to get to listen, all you need to do, or to get to watch the show, all you want to do is head to the show notes and go through to the link or find the Purple Patch Fitness page on YouTube and you can enjoy it right from there. Video, hoof! So fun. And who has the honor of being our first guest? Well, it's a very special guest today. His name is Jan Sibberson. Who is Jan? Well, he is the fastest Ironman swimmer ever. He's a former German national team swimmer and he holds the course record at the famed Hawaii Ironman World Championship. Yeah, the big one. 46 minutes and 29 seconds, and it is a record that he broke in a come back to the sport at the age of 43. Now beyond his accomplishments in swimming, Jan is also the founder of Sailfish, a triathlon performance apparel brand that began 15 years ago. And he's built that business brick by brick organically, with him at the helm, without capital raised or funding. He has done it himself. And it's a really marvelous story. And I thought that Sailfish is just preparing to penetrate the US market. I really wanted to have a conversation with Jan. And there was around two channels that we thought about this. So we're going to break this conversation down into two episodes. The first episode today, we're going to go deep diving into Jan's background, a real grounding. Understand his mission as he went on, building up both his educational career work experience and his swimming career in pool swimming, and also wanted to do a deep dive into his journey with Sailfish because it is full of lessons. I want to understand how Jan applied the sporting mindset in all of his lessons from athletics, to actually building a business, a brand, and a team. And how challenge and adversity throughout sport actually helped him thrive through really tough times in business. And finally, I want to investigate the key lessons that he's drawn from building and leading a business that will be helpful for any leader. And then next week in episode two, we're going to go deep dive into his 35-plus years of competitive swimming experience. Can we get some information and insights from Jan about swimming advice in open water, overcoming fear in swimming, and anxiety? Let's dig into his training and his execution of what it took for him at 43 years of age to break that very challenging course record at the Hawaii Ironman. And there is so much more. So this week, its performance, its business, it's building, its athletic mindset. It's a great episode. Next week, it's one for the triathletes and the swimmers. How do you actually apply and train for open water so that whether you're a newbie or an old hand at this, you can excel in your open water swimming experience? All right, it's a pretty meaty conversation today. And so we've decided to bypass Matt's Newsings. We're also not going to do word of the week. So, Barry, you might even see him because this is a video podcast. But you're going to get an opportunity to have the day off Barry because we are going right into the meat and potatoes. Guys. I'm very proud and very happy. It's a wonderful conversation. I think you're gonna get a lot out of it. Both this week and next week. And I want to thank Jan upfront for being so generous with his time. It was a marathon session. And so without further ado, we are going to dig into the main course. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Jan Sibberson of Sailfish, it is the meat and potatoes.
Matt Dixon 05:59
All right guys, so it is the meat and potatoes as we like to call it. And as mentioned, we have a very special guest today. In fact, I'm delighted to welcome onto the show Jan Sibberson. Welcome, Jan.
Jan Sibbersen 06:11
Thanks for having me, Matt.
Matt Dixon 06:13
It's lovely to have you on the show. And we are, we need to fasten our seatbelts a little bit because we're going to go through a couple of episodes of information here. And let's frame it for the listeners first. What I'd like to do, I think your story is so interesting. And this episode, or these two episodes that we're recording with you, it really actually came from a coffee that we sat down and had with each other at the recent Ironman St. George World Championships and started having a pow-wow and after about 10 minutes of chatting to each other, we said look, we need to put this on recording, I think that there's some really interesting insights. And we're going to try and break it into two parts. The first part, today's show, we're really going to dig into the second chapter of your life, at least professional life where we're going to talk about your business and your journey with Sailfish. And I think that there's some really interesting aspects to dive into around being an entrepreneur, building a company from the ground up, and some of your experiences and some of your mindsets that you've applied from that, from your first chapter, that we're also going to dive into a little bit today, around yourself as a professional swimmer, an Olympic swimmer, and the course record holder, the fastest swimmer in Ironman racing at the Hawaii Ironman World Championship. But I wanted to also in episode two, for next week, we're going to dig in and draw from some of your experience in swimming, and provide some insights, recommendations, and advice for people that are looking to improve in open water swimming, you have a wealth of experience in that. So we've got a lot to get going and get through. And I hope that you are ready, and you don't mess this up. And I'm sure it's going to be a really interesting conversation. So if you're locked and loaded are you ready to go?
Jan Sibbersen 08:04
You know, it's just like on the race course, right? You're well prepared, and then there's nothing to fear. So it'll hurt at points, right? It'll hurt at some point at some stage, but I'm ready to go.
Matt Dixon 08:18
You will meet adversity, you will meet adversity but you'll manage through. So let's start off as I'd like to do with every guest. I want to understand. I want to ground ourselves, our listeners, and give me just a little bit of a background on you growing up, where you grew up your family, maybe your schooling stuff along those lines.
Jan Sibbersen 08:43
Yeah, so it all started in, in Germany, actually in Bavaria, northern Bavaria. Back in 1975. When I was born. Went to school there. Started - both my parents were heavily, let's say, invested in sports. My dad was a physical education teacher and my mom, also a very avid sportswoman. And so, being a teacher allowed us to go on vacation quite often. And every vacation was pretty much centered around sports. So I think I got the full dosage really soon in life. And that never stopped. That really burned itself into my DNA, I would say. Yeah, I left my hometown when I was 18 to finish high school nearby and a little bit of a bigger city called Wurtzbach. Also in Bavaria, they had a Bundesliga team, which is not only Bundesliga and soccer, but also Bundesliga in swimming. And we competed for the German titles pretty much every year. And obviously, they were faster swimmers. It was a really good, really good club and really helped me to elevate my swimming. Ended up or had to go to the military for a year. Back then it was mandatory in Germany. But it was a sports facility. So you would do your basic training for three months time and then you would spend the rest training with, yeah, with pretty much an extended national team kind of. Yeah. And then, after my time at the military, I switched teams again. I was still swimming, and went to Heidelberg and also started to study there at Heidelberg University. So those were, let's say about the first 20 years from 1975 to 1995.
Matt Dixon 10:45
And just going back, was swimming always your first sport, did you do any other sports growing up, or were you sort of single sport?
Jan Sibbersen 10:52
I did, I did many other sports and growing up. And as a matter of fact, I used to, I used to be a skier and I was probably more talented in skiing than in swimming. I also raced skiing for the for the National Junior team, all the way till I was 13, 14. Yeah. And then I had to make a decision on either swimming or skiing, it happened to become swimming. Because it was it was a lot easier actually. Also, from a logistical point of view, I would have had to move to the south of Bavaria, or even to Austria to become like a real world class or whatever a skier and it was it was just too much of an effort, I would say. Um, so I ended up becoming a swimmer. But I was also in gymnastics, didn't like that very much. But once or twice a week, I think down the line and help for flexibility, etc. and coordination. especially. Did a little bit of mountain biking. When I was young, I always took my bike to school and already tried to set best times on my way to school and on my way back home, which resulted in me arriving at school sometimes completely soaked. That kind of thing. But, I was also very early into windsurfing. So I think I started windsurfing in my early teens. And I enjoyed that for a long, long time. Until I became a kite surfer. Yeah, that's still a very big pattern.
Matt Dixon 12:23
That is such a casserole of different sporting experiences. I mean the difference with skiing to gymnastics but it's that whole-body coordination. So let's come back to the ultimate path, swimming, and why don't you give us a sort of two-minute synopsis of your pool swimming career because I don't think a lot of people realize but you actually went all the way up to the very top level making the Olympic team, yeah?
Jan Sibbersen 12:51
I didn't quite make the Olympics, I swam Olympic trials.
Matt Dixon 12:55
Olympic trials, that's right.
Jan Sibbersen 12:57
I swam trials. I took fourth place at trials and you have to take you know you have to be second in order to make it. Back then there were some really hot guns out there Jörg Hoffmann, (unintelligible). Those guys might ring a bell for the swimmers amongst your listeners. They swam 15 minutes in the 1500 free and Jörg Hoffmann even 14:51 I believe in Perth back in the days. So my best times - so I was national team for 10 years. Junior team, National B-Team. I swam Europeans, I swam worlds and best times were, back then 1:52 in the 200 free a 3:56 in the 400 free, and 15:47 in the 1500. So this is long course meters. Yeah. Back in the days, that was okay. Today, your just getting laughed at.
Matt Dixon 13:57
Well, it's funny, our swimming careers were somewhat parallel in many ways. I was not a distance freestyle. I was a breaststroker and IM’er (Individual Medley)but the folks that I competed against at Olympic trials were Adrian Morehouse and Nick Gillingham who were the Olympic gold and silver medalist at the time so my chances of making the team were pretty slim, but I was just - I think it's just that level down there's that at the top of the pyramid there's that extra little area and I just looked up and I thought I'm not quite that good. And, which is great, but very interesting, seems like apparent - and obviously very similar in age, so we went through the same experiences. I think I'm gonna ask about your training regime in swimming later in the show, but I want to now dig into your transition into triathlon and what was the catalyst for you to take up triathlon? How did that journey occur and transition to open water swimming ultimately?
Jan Sibbersen 15:04
Yeah, yeah. So maybe just one more note on the competitive swimming in the pool and you know you're sitting there, pretty much on top of the game on top, let's say in the in the final of a national championship, right and there's eight guys on the block and then you take fourth place or fifth place or third place. But and you wonder, you know you've trained 12-13 times a week you swam 60-70k a week and you're like what does it come down to? And, you know, I was not fortunate to win, to have this win in the swimming world, but then later on and the triathlon work, at least for the swim part, figured that one out. So there was there was a great, yeah, relief or success to get there, but it definitely took some time. And it took a lot of work to get there. But, yeah, getting back into how did I get into triathlons. So we had in the early 90s, you know, you started in the swimming pool, when you are swimming with your team, you started to see these crazy people who would not only swim, but then they would get on their bike afterward, or they would come from cycling, or they would come from running. And then you know, they would they wouldn't swim very fast. And they would always look a little bit ugly, but those were the triathletes. And so I became friends with one of them. And he regularly made it to Kona, back then in the late 80s, early 90s. And he told me the stories about Mark Allen, Dave Scott, and all this kind of stuff. And you know, maybe one day, this could be on the bucket list but didn't really think about it too much. Until like mid-90s, I would do my first triathlon. After the swim season, swim season usually ends in June or July, and when that was over, I would get my - got this old Peugeot bike where you had still the shifting on the on the downtube everything super manual, and lead the Olympic distance race lead out of the water by like, I don't know, five minutes or so and eventually got caught on the bike already. And it was the first time I didn't train before. I said, well I can ride the bike right? and running, I can do that as well. And I remember in T2 when I started to run, my knees, it felt like somebody was sticking needles into me and I was like how can you possibly enjoy this this is so painful. But it was also the first time I had did this brick thing or of riding and running. So I did another race like a week later and it already felt better. And I enjoyed it. I mean, you know, that's that's how we all end up in the sport because we love it. Sometimes more, sometimes less. And I said to myself, hey, let's maybe this is something for when my swimming career is over. And so eventually my swimming career came to an end in 2000. I was 25. And then it was more a, yeah, well things don't happen for chance but it was more out of necessity of doing something. Back then I was living in New York and, we'll talk about that, had quite a stressful job and needed to do - and I started to put on some pounds and I noticed that very quickly how the pounds kept on adding and I said to myself after three or four months of wine and dine and party now it's time to get back into shape because otherwise, you're just going to balloon. And that's how I that's how I really got into the sport and there was a race in the Caribbean, in St. Croix, the half Ironman in St. Croix, still my favorite race up till today. It was absolutely amazing down there, so much fun. I think this is what triathlons should be. Yeah, and prepared for that by swimming in the downtown Athletic Club in New York by riding up the West Side Highway, and running in Central Park. And then and then flew to the Caribbean had a week of some fun and rum and coke. Hit the race, placed second overall in the age group category, and had a slot for Kona suddenly, and that was the start of my triathlon career. Yeah, I didn't really plan for it. Honestly, I didn’t. There's a lot of things that I didn't plan for in my life but definitely was an exciting kickstart to the whole story that was to follow.
Matt Dixon 20:01
In our in our second episode, we're going to dig into all of your swimming experience and hopefully provide the listeners with some real insights and advice around open water, swimming, and training, overcoming fear so much more. Today, we're going to dig into your journey post swimming, but I do just before we dig into that, I do want to just bubble up very briefly, just the next couple of minutes talk about the swim course record at Kona, you went to Kona, the swim course record was just over 46 minutes by memory. And, and in fact, I'm probably the only one that remembers this. But I remember in the early 2000s, you and I being in the same race. And I had heard about this Jan Sibbersen guy and I thought, well, I'm a swimmer, I'm going to swim on his feet. I did some on your feet for about 150 meters. And then you swiftly got rid of me but you were chasing the swim course record in that race through the early 2000s. And I think got very, very close a couple of times yeah but didn't quite get there. What was the catalyst for you to return when you were 43, and go for it again when you did ultimately successfully break that record? 46 minutes and 29 seconds. My memory. Is that accurate?
Jan Sibbersen 21:19
That's that's accurate. Yeah. So so the record was standing at 46:44 by Lars Jorgensen, who happened to be an Olympic - an Olympian in the 1988 Olympics, I believe in the 1500 free. So he knew what he was doing. And when I first got to Kona in 2001. So I raced Kona 2001 through 2004. So four times in a row, and then 17 and 18 - 2017 and 2018. So my first year in Kona, I was like, you know, this is, this is great fun and didn't really look at the swim record, per se. But really just wanted to experience the whole thing. And it ended up being great fun. I was first out of the water. So I'm some 8:48 and change. So so that was cool, right? But then I thought, okay, let's, and I soon realized that I probably wouldn't be on top of the race overall because I'm a tall and a very kind of heavy guy. So that, you know, I knew I would never run a marathon sub-three hours or something like that. I wasn't built for that. And also having been training in the pool or in the water on my life, and then putting a lot of run load on very quickly I made I made all the mistakes that you can make as a beginner, and ran into injury and that kind of stuff. So that was, why am I saying this? Why am I telling you this? It's because that was the reason I said, look, you know, I gotta focus on the things that I can achieve, or that are reasonably for me, reasonable for me to achieve. And one thing that would be really cool to have the swim record in Hawaii. So basically, '02, ’03, and '04, were really, I was focused on getting the record, while still arriving at the finish line at a decent hour and having a solid race. And I think, and I think that was that second part of the sentence while still arriving at the finish line at a decent. That's what killed the record. Because I think if you you know, it's number one, there are so many things that so many variables that have to come together in order to be able to break that record. And some of them are not in your control. So one year it was super, there was super wavy, they wanted to call off the swim basically the night before there were 6 - 7- 8 foot waves. And a couple of 100 people dropped out of the swim, I think it was 2002 or so. And then and then you know you had a year like 2003 and I was I back then the swim exit at Kona was on the left side of the pier when you come from the ocean. So you have walk up that ramp if you remember. So I got to the ramp and I looked up and there was 46:44 right there but I had 10 meters to run or five meters to run and I was six seconds over. Right. And then I think in the last time I tried it in 2004, similar situation, you know, I basically spent half of the swim race to try to get rid of people like you and others who sticked on my feet longer. But it's so counterproductive for your overall performance because if you go too hard in the beginning, you build up all that lactate and it's gonna really hurt you towards the end. So those that you know, there was always something and then there's always in the back of your of your head. I still got to finish, I still want to have a good race. And so you don't go all out. So I got - I came back and then I buried the whole topic because I didn't, in 2005 I didn't qualify anymore. In 2006, I was already starting about starting Sailfish, thinking about starting Sailfish. And then and then there's 10 years of growing the business growing the brand. And then I'm back in Kona in 2016, and I'm watching the swim start, and everybody who has watched this before knows the goosebumps and the gun goes off, and the atmosphere is just so it's electric, it's so second to nothing else in the sport, I would say. And I was like, you know, I gotta try this again. I have to, I have to try it again. Otherwise, I'm not being honest to myself. And yeah, needed two attempts for it to work. But it was that 100% dedication just on that, right? I knew, okay, I have to finish the race in order to - that the record counts, but being 43, eventually, and having so many lifetime miles in you, and we can talk about it in more detail later, about the preparation and all that, but being at that, at that age, you know, it's like this, you have to be single, single-minded and focused on this one thing, otherwise, it's not happening. And then all the other circumstances played out well, and there it is 46:29.
Matt Dixon 26:34
There it is. Well, I can't wait to dig in. But I promised myself that we wouldn't just go on the adventure of swimming because I think that you have so much to offer on the other side. So let's actually reverse order, we're gonna go to chapter two of your life as I as I'm labeling it, and we're gonna talk about what you mentioned, Sailfish, and, and for the American listeners, many of you guys might not know Sailfish, but you are now entering the US market. And but this is a really established wetsuit brand. I think you're in your 15th year? The 15th year. So let's go back to the start about I want to dig in and ask, but what was the catalyst for deciding to launch a company or wetsuit brand?
Jan Sibbersen 27:24
Well, I think that you know, we have to take another one or two steps back and look at, you know, where I come from, and what I first what I did before. So, yeah, I graduated in 2000, from Harvard, and, you know, and people from Harvard back then they would either go into investment banking, consulting, or government, those were kind of like the three options that you had. And also, you know, it was the height of the dot-com boom. And basically, if you wanted to, if you had a business plan for pet food than you would get $5 million if you had a one-pager. But I didn't decide on doing that. Because there was nothing in me that was entrepreneurial. I didn't, you know, it was it never crossed my mind it was get a job and then get going. So I was fortunate enough to get a job with Goldman Sachs in New York. And started there in the wealth management division, worked there for a year with high-net-worth individuals. Super interesting. Learned a lot about how to do business. And yeah, just just how to conduct yourself in the world of business was very, very good learning experience. Moved on then to the Goldman Sachs office in Frankfort, switch divisions worked in the equities division and sold U.S. equities to German institutional investors. Completely different than the private wealth area. Tough hours because, you know, you'd have two or three times a week, you'd have to stay until the market closes in New York. But again, very, very intense environment, but very, very instrumental to building a skill set for life for later on. And, and yeah, and, and then as I said, earlier, I ended up doing this race in, in St. Croix and doing Hawaii. And then something happened that in 2002, that the Ironman went came from Roth, which is today's Challenge Roth, it moved to Frankfurt, and here was sitting in one of the tallest buildings office buildings in Frankfurt and my boss reads the paper and he says, Jan, the Ironman is coming to Frankfurt, you have to do the race. And I, you know, I thought, you know, we're going make some money now. And this is no, no, no, you have to do this race, it's, I can see it in your eyes, you're passionate for this, you have to do it. So, yeah, I went back and forth. And I was 27 at that time, and I thought look, you know, as overall career path, how about if I do this for a couple of years professionally, then I've had two years of Goldman under my belly, let's do a triathlon for a couple of years, and then let's go to business school and let's and then at the end, then I'm 30 or something, and then I can still go back into finance or, or something else. So that was like the overarching plan, right. But I think once you, you know, once you've experienced Hawaii, and once you've experienced the life of a professional triathlete, and I was then starting to sell some wetsuits on the side from an American brand. And that went, that went extremely well. Because people saw me swimming, and they saw, oh, this guy swims fast, he must swim in a fast wetsuit, so let's buy his wetsuit. And that's kind of like when, out of out of chance, I became this entrepreneur. And also, as a pro triathlete, you have to be an entrepreneur as well and have to have to see where the money comes from, especially back in those days. I mean, it's not much easier today, but it was really tough to get to get companies to sponsor you. So those were, like my first steps in, in kind of, like, smelling or putting my nose into entrepreneurship, left and right. But it did become really serious when I started Sailfish.
Jan Sibbersen 31:50
So, you know, I, I, when I reflect on it, I would say 2000, maybe 2005, 2006, or so, I've been on the pro tour for a couple of years, I've been selling wetsuits for a couple of years. And I really liked the lifestyle, and I just didn't see myself going back into an office building. Every single day and into working in financial markets. It was a super interesting time, I learned a hell of a lot for, yeah, for becoming an entrepreneur later on, on for how to do business and, and financing a company and all that kind of stuff. But it was way more appealing and way more maybe adventurous for me to look into doing your own thing and, and trying to make a make a living out of a hobby, really, so. So I think that that combination of seeing the opportunity, the sport is growing, there is there is a business that offers good margins. So there's growth, it's something that you love doing. It's something where I thought, okay, I can even make a better product than I was reselling, before. All these factors kind of play together. And what I was always also what I would also mention is I like having projects that come to an end. So let's say it just like in swimming or in triathlon there is there is at some point, the end of a season, and then there's a break and then there's some rest and then you recharge and you start again and you try things try to do things better than next year. That was really and that still is really appealing to me. In contrast to that, I mean financial markets, you can in investment banking, you can obviously look for the next deal and all the time. But that particular the way that our sport was set up and having Hawaii and Kona in October and then kind of like everybody goes into deep dive or disappears from the face of the earth in November and to reappear fresh in December and January, I like that. And it coincided with the business cycle. So so that's that's how I ended up enjoying this and growing this.
Matt Dixon 34:26
It's interesting you your experience with Goldman and beyond and Harvard created this wonderful grounding for you to go on and be a professional triathlete with a little bit of perspective and actually several of the athletes, my more, some of my more successful athletes had very similar what we call grounding experiences. Laura Siddall came from working with several years at Shell oil down in Australia. Meredith Kessler, RBC Royal Bank of Canada. Sarah Piampiano, HSBC out of Wall Street, and all of them had very similar experiences of, okay, I've done this. Now I'm going to do triathlon. And that came off of this real sort of grounding and perspective of, of professional life in that, when they went on to a professional triathlon, I think that perspective that helped them develop their personal brands, professional relationships, and a real sense of great ownerships, rather than sometimes just falling into the sport, and lacking a real understanding of, not the real world, but I'll use that just to get us there. It's interesting. I want to ask you about a word because we talked about this and I think it's interesting because ultimately, you are an entrepreneur. So, so what does that word mean to you, entrepreneur?
Jan Sibbersen 35:51
You know, I think it is, for me, and I think some entrepreneurs, right, might well definitely share that, it is, it is, you know, you you have to be good at something in within the realm in order to, you know, you have to have an idea, or you have to have a product, or you have to have something that you're really good at. But at the same time that the thing that appealed most to me as an entrepreneur, or still appeals most to me, is that you need to know, you need to be a very, very good all-rounder, and you need to know something about pretty much everything, right? Whether it's accounting, HR, marketing, sales, purchasing, product development, you name it, that broad-spectrum, and obviously you learn as you go, and the numbers get bigger, and it gets more complex, you have more and more employees, and you have to you have to deal with all these different challenges. That's, that's probably the most fascinating part for me, because you grow enormously, versus you know, and I'm not saying that, that not being an entrepreneur is not a good thing. I mean, they're, you know, if you want to climb up the corporate ladder, and eventually become CEO, you probably have to be a very good entrepreneur as well, because it's at the CEO level, you have to also run all the aspects of a business. But kind of like doing it yourself and starting it from ground zero. You know, that's, that's, that's a fascinating way to do it. And it's so rewarding to see it when you when things start to grow. And when, when people buy your products, I still am still getting a thrill out of it. When I look into our online shop every day and I see our - if I go through the streets in Germany, and sometimes you see a Sailfish product, and I'm like, wow? You know, somebody actually trusted in this brand and trusted maybe me, and in buying this, and it's so rewarding. And it's so cool to see that. But yeah, that's all.
Matt Dixon 38:05
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a really valid point. Because as a small business owner or an entrepreneur, that absolute necessity, sometimes it's stuff that you really have to grow into and learn and evolve to as well, that is not your natural strength - and who loves HR or dealing with tax and accounting, everything - but you actually have ultimate ownership and accountability for that. It's always growth. And it's really quite challenging. And in many ways, I think that's one of the purities of triathlon, bringing it back, is that it's multi-sport, and most people that do it, have a weakness, of which in order for them to move their performance needle, they have to lean into that weakness and grow in that area. So there's this really nice analogy of - yours was running, mine was running, it was my weakness, and I had to find a way to improve. And now that sort of, running Purple Patch, there are a whole bunch of areas that it's like, I would never have done this if I, if I was just, you know, under somebody's wing instead and doing it myself, which I think is interesting, which, leads me to another question. One of the first questions I had for you actually, as we're sitting down and having that coffee because you came from Harvard, yeah. This runway, you have Goldman Sachs. You're starting a consumer product. And when you launch a company, consumer product company, especially, I imagine many business owners immediately heading out thinking okay, external funding, let's go and raise the capital. Let's give me the big runway and let's go and do it. And you decided to go on the journey of organic growth. Let's call it brick by brick. So that to me, is fascinating. You literally did it, have done this, on your own. And you did not take external capital. So how did you decide on that route? To build it organically?
Jan Sibbersen 40:09
Well, I mean, nowadays, you know, there's, it almost becomes a philosophical question. Nowadays, there's, there's so much talk about sustainability, and, you know, caring for the planet, and all that sort of stuff. And, and then you look at, you know, you look at the world of finance, you look at the world of startups, and again, you know, It all exists for a reason. And some of it is great, although, sometimes it's not as great, but you know, that a lot of a big focus in I would say, in the, in the past 10-20 years, and especially when I look at the startup world, it seems to be you know, the get rich quick dot-com, or whatever you want to call it, right. And there is enough people who, who get rich and get happy with it as well. But oftentimes, how sustainable is what they're doing? And oftentimes I see it with brands, they come and they go, and, and they get sold a few times, and then they fly high. And then two years later, they're gone, completely gone. So you know, and it comes with, with the forces of investors, obviously, you know, there's, there's different sorts of investors there, there is the ones that are always sitting on your shoulder and nagging you, and, and then there's probably the more relaxed ones, and then there's, in my case, no investor at all, where it, you know, for me, and, you know, going forward, maybe I need some funding at some point. And I think if you want to grow big, you will have to have that discussion sooner or later. But up to this stage, I managed to grow it organically, and by just essentially always reinvesting, but I always liked, I liked the freedom of not having any investors and having - being able to make my own decisions, and do the things that were right for the long term growth of the company, and maybe not for short term profitability from a short term profitability point of view. So that was also, that was always important to me. Secondly, I also believe that sometimes, if you don't have that stress, and that pressure from investors, I think it it's better for, for the creativity, sometimes I would say. Because you can just decide yourself at the pace that you want to grow or that you want to look at opportunities. Left, right, and center. For example, I mean, I got into the stand-up paddleboard business before everybody else did. And back at that point, I would have needed capital in order to make it make it a viable business. But it's, but, you know, I started in 2010, I started producing stand-up paddleboards. And it didn't work out, because yeah, I didn't focus too much on it. But is it something that I would have been able to do if there was investors there? Yeah, well, you'd have to convince them and all that. And then, and then there would be a talk, you know, we're deviating from our core strategy, and so on and so forth. So, So I think creativity plays a role in that decision of growing organically as well. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's very rewarding. If you, if you, if you do it yourself, and you can look back at it, and you know, that you've, you've done it out of your own resources. That's, that's, it's a really, really nice feeling. I understand it's not possible in many startups because the starting costs are so high. But back in the days, and also if you, you know, if, if, if you experience - and that's probably the biggest challenge if you've experienced super-strong growth, then you have to finance it, and you have to find a way to get these funds. And of course, I have a credit line with the bank, and I usually order my products first and then I go to the bank, and I said, guys, I gotta have to confess something, you know, I gotta pay for these orders. And then and then they say, well, what could go wrong? I say well, worst thing that can happen is you end up with a lot of wet suits in your bank. But you know, it's a partnership on our needs of our funds and it definitely keeps you focused and alive doing it yourself. Yeah.
Matt Dixon 45:07
It's funny that you mentioned that you're basically in control of your own destiny of growth in many ways owning it yourself, but have there been times - I guess two questions. Have there been times where you feel like the lack of external capital has held back the opportunities for growth? I guess the stand-up paddleboards is potentially one example. The second, have you navigated times of real emotional and practical financial stress with the business at all, or have you just built it really incrementally?
Jan Sibbersen 45:43
Well, I mean, looking at the situation right now, right. I'm coming to the U.S., we're doing a three months road trip across the entire U.S. from San Francisco all the way to Boston. And I'm looking at this beast, at this country, and I'm looking at the sheer size of it. And I could think, okay, you know, I could do something here, there. And then there is warehousing, logistics, all this kind of stuff. And yeah, there are huge capital restraints, and if I had another million dollars, I would, I would know where to put it. But I still believe it's doable, it will take a little bit longer. But I have a feeling it will be more and more sustainable. And it'll be healthier to grow it from the ground up. And I think we'll be around much longer than just throwing a lot of capital at it, trying to get some sales, and then only realizing a few years down the line. Where's the profitability? And, you know, I see it with other players in the market, where I say, you know, there's no way you can be profitable by the things you're doing. And sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Have there been, to your second question, have there been times where it's been really stressful on the financial side? Oh, yeah, hell yeah. You know, whenever you place a big order a purchase order in Asia, and then you pay for it, and between the time the money has left your bank account and the product arrives, hopefully, intact and everything in order in your warehouse, and then you start selling it, that's usually a 2 to 3, 4 months time period, where you bridge that with your own capital, and you're 100% in. And if that ship sinks on the way, you better be well insured. But, you know, that can cause a couple of sleepless nights here and there. And that's - that happens every year in usually in January and February. Yeah. So we're beyond that. We're beyond that point already this year.
Matt Dixon 47:57
Yeah. And that's great. I, I'm almost smirking. Because your last three or four minutes that you that you chatted there. What you really talked about was the life of an athlete, in many ways, the long-term progression, and building it fundamentally from the ground up incremental success that over the time you deliver something really sustainable or a robust athlete. And along that way, you're still going to have setbacks and challenges and failures. And, and so it's a wonderful segue into my next question here, which, which is really around sort of one of my observations of high performers. And I'm going to label you today Jan, a high performer, but a high performer in sport and in life, I would say, always have a great ability to navigate failure, setbacks, adversity. So I'm assuming, and your just sort of probably went a little into that, but in swimming and in your business I guess, you've navigated setbacks and adversity, so how have the experience in sports and going through those challenges, How have they parlayed into your business experiences or challenges? Have you ever made that connection? Have you drawn on some of the emotional side of stuff that you've gone through in sport and applied it to yourself as an entrepreneur?
Jan Sibbersen 49:30
Oh, absolutely. You know, I think the biggest factor there really, it gave the greatest teachings in sport, was for me at least, especially when it comes to endurance sport, if you're well prepared, and if you've done your homework, there's really not that much to worry about on race day. And doing - building that confidence over not only years but decades, that you know that, you know if you've put in the work if you've rested well, that there's a very, very good likelihood that you're going to have a great race. It's so similar to the world of business, you know, if you have tested your product, if you've worked hard enough on it, if you've tested your systems, your website, your, you know, if you've hired the right staff, there is very, you know, I mean, there's still a lot, there still a lot of stuff, for example, COVID, that, you know, nobody, you can't, you can't control that, but you gotta you know, but if everything else, if you - I always say to my team, you know, out of ten big things, or ten big decisions, we got to get eight right. We can screw up once or twice, that's okay, that won't break us, but like seven to eight hits, we have to get that and we can, we can, we can allow ourselves one or two, or maybe three misses. And that's, that's, you know, we've had to deal with tons of problems and you encounter problems, smaller ones and bigger ones on a very frequent basis in business, but, you know, there are these days when you realize, damn, that's, that's a big problem now like were like in big trouble. And how do you solve that? And I think then, yeah, you have to keep calm and remember that it's and maybe also in, in, in, in steering the business, not taking risks so big that they can completely shut you down. I mean, those would be stupid risks to take. Right. But so mitigate that, mitigating the risk, is a very important task in my daily business now. So that we're not exposed too much on any front. And that can be hiring a second person for a job just to have a redundancy, if somebody doesn't show up or leaves the company or so those are factors beyond product. But it's so strikingly similar to the athletic world, what you're talking about. Absolutely.
Matt Dixon 52:23
You talked about team there, and I want to, I want to stay on the mindset a little bit. And, and the mindset and the traits around high performance, something that I'm really passionate about. You as a swimmer, your own traits and mindset, in sport, what do you think are the biggest one? We've just talked about the ability to navigate adversity? What are some of the other traits that you really bring to your journey of guiding Sailfish?
Jan Sibbersen 52:53
For me, you know, when when you run a small business, just like just like, just like you, you know, and you have a team of 10-15 people? You, I think you have to make sure that, you know, at least I asked myself that question before I hire someone, you know, would I go out in the evening for a beer with a person who is supposed to be on my team. So that's actually one of the first questions that I ask myself. And if I'm skeptical about that, I usually don't end up hiring the person. Because you're so close to each other in a small business and, and we still need a lot of all-rounders, so everybody still has, you know, everybody still has their areas, whether it's marketing, product development, or whatever. But what I said before somebody goes on vacation, and you might not have two people on that one position. So somebody's got to jump in. And, and so naturally, the team needs to be very close. And there needs to be a common denominator of mutual understanding and also comfort, I would say. So, that personal level is super important to me. And yeah, I mean, when I became an entrepreneur, I had zero idea of HR. And it you know, I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning. I still make mistakes. At the moment I don't think I made - I think we have a great team together. You always think that until somebody leaves for one reason or the other. But I found that to be the one of the most important factors in putting together a good team in business. Yeah.
Matt Dixon 54:51
It's great. I want to talk about a subject that that's, I think, really, really important for the times that we find ourselves in, which is stress. A lot of people, in fact, a lot of leaders I know, but employees as well, are navigating really turbulent times in the world, obviously the last two years. And it's been very challenging. And as we sort of collectively, emerging back into what we might call the real world, it's changed again, we've all sort of adapted to being at home. And now we're going back out on the world, goodness me, you're going all over the U.S. on your roadshow. And, but there are times that are high stress. You've competed on the high stage, you own and operate a business that we've already talked about, you have to navigate high stress. And so I'm really interested to know your, how you see your relationship, how you view those times of high discomfort, high stress, how do you approach that as a leader? And how do you manage it?
Jan Sibbersen 55:59
Well, you know, first of all, I think, you know, that everybody knows that when it gets stressful, usually the real character comes out. And things can become a little bit more edgy here and there. But I think one of the most important lessons for a leader, or for myself, is you need to be able to steer the tempo or the speed of a team. So I think when there is quieter times, you also need to, you know, you need to let go, and you need to let them do what they want to do. And you need to, everybody needs to relax a bit here and there. And then so that, you know, when there's more stressful times, you know, you talk to your team and say, look, this is going to happen now, we're gonna get through this, it's going to last for four weeks, six weeks, maybe even two months or so. But it shouldn't if it takes if it lasts for too long, you probably need more people, I mean, or, you know, you get to look at other factors. But, you know, usually, stress comes over, over a halfway definable period of time. And, and, and, and if you can balance that, or if you can navigate the tempo of stress. I think that's already, that's already, yeah, half a winner, right. I think the second part or the second realization is just if you live in a non-stress environment, or completely on an island, and it's just about sipping pina coladas, you know, I don't know how much growth comes out of that. I think growth pretty much only happens when there is a healthy amount of stress, right? If it gets too much, then people start to block and then nothing works anymore. But if it's a healthy, and I found that both in my athletic career, just like as in business, you know if, if there is excitement, if there's stuff going on, and it's happening, that's when I thrive, and that's when I think a lot of people who are like-minded when they really perform at their best. And it's not necessarily, and or let's say the more relaxed times, those are better times for innovation for creativity. Like my best business ideas, I've never had them in a stressful day in the office, they usually happen over a glass of wine or on a ride, or on talking with someone. But that mixture, it is so important to have that. But at the end of the day, stress is inevitable, and it will happen and it's something that I was really well, consciously or subconsciously, prepared throughout my athletic career. So I think I can handle it relatively well. But yeah, do I make mistakes and stressful decisions? And do I sometimes maybe become a little bit too snappy or too direct or too forceful? Yeah, I've got these issues as well. I think we all do, and I admire other people who are just completely calm in those in those situations, but you know, it always reminds me of the trading floor on Goldman Sachs in New York, you know, I mean, talk to these people when they know what stress is all about. And they also need to relax at some point and obviously, otherwise, we wouldn't be talking, a great way to reduce stress is either in the morning or after a tough work day, to do some sports, for example, cycling, swimming or running right? So that obviously helps tremendously. Yeah.
Matt Dixon 59:48
I think it's a great perspective. To finish episode one I want to talk about Sailfish a little bit and we talked about you as a leader but here you are, 15 years, you're expanding into the U.S. And so, I think a lot of listeners will be interested, is your focus going to be here - is it a singular product? Is it going to be pretty much around wetsuits only? What's the plan as you go out, around Sailfish? I'm interested to see your sort of strategy going into the U.S.
Jan Sibbersen 1:00:20
So you know, I've always been looking at the US. Obviously, you do when you when you are in, in this market, or in a lot of consumer, consumer product markets, that the U.S. is the biggest market in the world. And it's, having lived here, having been educated here, having worked here, and I've always had a fascination for the country. So yeah, but as I, when I, when I look back, there were still these other projects with swim record, and here and there and a lot of things on the side. So, and then COVID hit, obviously. But now looking at, I looked at the market last year, at the US market, and as I do every year, and I was like, well, it seems like there is a big player that is looking at seems like he's moving out, or they're moving out, of the space. I also was able to hire three years ago, kind of like my right-hand man at the moment in Germany, who's running the business on a day to day - on a day to day basis. And that gave me a lot of confidence and also a lot of strength in order to direct my energy to a new market, knowing that the rest of the business will be taken care of very well. At the same time, we had about two years to develop another full new product range beyond wetsuits. We came out with like, over 50 new products this year. So I also felt that the product portfolio would now also suit a U.S. launch. So those were three, four, another one or two factors that led me to believe that now would be the right time to enter the U.S. market. And we decided first to start with wetsuits. Only that was just to get the system up and running in April. But already now, we added, we added swim skins, we added accessories, and so on and so forth. So, so we are a full triathlon brand, triathlon product brand. You can really get everything from us, except a bike and running and cycling shoes. And, yeah, we have, we have incorporated in the U.S., we have a warehouse in the U.S., in Portland, in Oregon. And I've taken a five-year approach, again, not a five-month approach, or a one-year approach. So this year, and this roadshow, it's really all about learning how this market ticks, how it works. And I can tell you two months into it, I've learned a tremendous amount about this country, about the people, about the consumers, about the triathletes, about the open water swimmers, about how everything's set up here. It's been absolutely a spectacular experience so far. And I think it will help us in making the right decisions with a, let's say, limited budget to spend, in order to grow in a smart way in this country. So yeah, next year, you will see a lot more of us. And then, yeah, from a business perspective, I do want to be profitable in five years’ time.
Matt Dixon 1:03:57
Of course, and it's you know, you're gonna get a lot of fans from this show, because it's a real human story and, and one that I think that we can all identify with. I guess I want to give you one chance and, and talk about the products at Sailfish for those folks that are not familiar with the brand. What should they know, you know, why Sailfish in a way?
Jan Sibbersen 1:04:21
Well, our credo, or what it says, underneath our brand, 'Sailfish is made to make you faster.' So that's, that's our, that's what we grew up with. And it tells you that we are a performance brand. But it also tells you that you know, that here's someone that has been swimming for about 35-40 years of his life, and I think, and who has also worked on the product itself for 15 years - so I still, I still develop and fine-tune all our wetsuits myself. Of course, I give it, I give the product also to, to beginners, to people who are not good swimmers, to get their feedback. So, that comes into the equation as well. But I think at the end of the day, what, what our mission or our goal is, is to, you know when you have somebody who is a triathlete or an open water swimmer, and if they think about anything swimming related, if they think about us, rather sooner than later, then we have achieved our mission. And we, yeah, we really want to, to help and to make the swimming experience a fun experience and a comfortable experience. And for those of you who are out there for racing fast, obviously a very fast experience, too.
Matt Dixon 1:05:56
That's a great way. My last question for today is, we have a lot of young coaches that are looking to build their business, we have a lot of actually young entrepreneurs that are just starting their journey in endeavors well outside of endurance sports but are ultimately business owners. Would you have any advice for them as they're starting their journey? What would you advise for people that are starting their own business or are in the early stages of starting their own business?
Jan Sibbersen 1:06:26
Well, you know, if you if you do it on your own, and if you don't have outside funding, and that is, you know, that's obviously the way I went and the way I would recommend, because it keeps your senses very sharp, and you really look at where you spend your money very, very carefully. You know, it's, it's, it's a business, especially the coaching business, I think, is super, it's about relationships, and it's about communication. And it's really you know, I say, up till today, I tell all my sales folks, it's one wetsuit at a time. You know, we're not selling bulk, we're not selling 1000 wetsuits at a time, we're selling one at a time. And it goes, and communication, goes such a long way, you know, talking to people, following up with people, being reliable, being sincere, paying your bills on time. And, and also, every, every, you know, every week, take a step back from the dance floor, and go into the stands and look at what you're doing. Try to reflect on what you're doing. That I think is really important, because you can, you can get caught up so much in the day-to-day business, that you lose sight of the overall goal. And a good friend of mine, he once told me 'the CEO of a company does not work in the company, he works alongside the company.' And I think that's a very, you know, at some, maybe not in the beginning stage, because you don't have anybody who does the dirty work, you see you have to do it yourself, but at some point, it is so important to take that step back and to look at your organization and look at it from the outside try to try to put yourself into the, onto the, outside of things. And you will see a lot about, about what, you know, you should be doing and usually, you know, you know then yourself what you need to do?
Matt Dixon 1:08:23
Yes, I mean, somewhat on a parallel path, I could not agree more and, in fact, sort of trying to rise up a little bit myself and get out the weeds. But we don't talk about obviously one wetsuit at a time, but we talk about our athletes as being more than a number. So every athlete has their own journey. And it's very important, no matter how close their relationship is, obviously, at the very nucleus, athletes, the small number of athletes that are working with me directly, but as they go out to our coaches, and then on our squad programs is, every single one of those athletes has their own journey that's really important to them, and they are putting their trust in us. And so we must build the relationship. And if things do start to go wrong, we need to course-correct, we need to support them in any area. So it's exactly the same mindset of - it is relationships and that is a great investment. So it's wonderful. Well, Jan, thank you so much. We're going to take a pause and a break and then we're going to invite you back next week and we're going to draw on that 35 or 40 years of swimming experience to hopefully provide some, some really interesting perspective, some storytelling, and some advice around helping people, no matter what their level is, get faster. But for today, I want to thank you so much and really appreciate your journey. I also want to offer you best of luck in the journey as you expand Sailfish. You're a great leader and really, thank you for coming on today.
Jan Sibbersen 1:09:55
Thanks, Matt. I really appreciate the time and I hope to see and hear all of you back next week.
Matt Dixon 1:10:01
Cheers, guys.
Jan Sibbersen 1:10:02
Cheers.
Matt Dixon 1:10:12
Thanks so much for listening. This has been the purple patch podcast. If you like what you hear I would really appreciate it if you share with your friends and even go the extra mile and head over to Apple podcasts, subscribe rate, and review the show. The Apple podcast link is in the show notes. Your support and positive reviews go a huge way in increasing our visibility and also the exposure to time-starved people everywhere who want to integrate sport into life and ultimately thrive. Don't forget you can also follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Cheers.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
swimming, business, triathlon, wetsuits, sport, Sailfish, race, Kona, Hawaii, Jan, running, record, building, swimmer, swim, stress, business, coaching, purple patch, habits, performance, success, triathlon, athlete, ironman, training, performance, journey,