Episode 224: Jan Sibbersen - (Part 2) - Insights and Training Tips to Improve Open Water Performance
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IRONMAN World Champion swimmer, Jans Sibbersen, explains how pool swimming translates to open water.
Matt welcomes Ironman World Champion swimmer and CEO and founder of Sailfish, a triathlon performance apparel company, Jan Sibbersen, for Part 2 of their discussion in which they focus on success in open water swimming.
With more than 35 years of competitive swimming experience, Sibbersen shares his insights and best training practices for athletes both with a swimming background and without.
In today's show, you'll learn three main things:
The key differences between pool swimming, and open water swimming.
(32:49) “I think we've all seen it - how good pool swimmers sometimes completely fail in open water. And it's because [...] it's an unfamiliar environment [...] So the best way to address that is to familiarize yourself with all these situations and train it."
Technical and training considerations to prepare for an open water swim.
(34:21) “You know, it only helps usually when you have somebody standing on the pool deck. You can do all the drills in the world, you can do all the technique work in the world. But if you don't get immediate feedback from someone who's watching you, it's really hard to improve it over time.”
Recommendations and tips on how to overcome anxiety in open water.
(45:20) “Give it those extra one or two minutes that the masses are gone and just jump in last. [...] it's so much better and so much more enjoyable if you start slowly, and then you ease your way into it. [...] Don't worry about this minute or so that you lose, you lose a lot more if you get a panic attack”
Additional topics include:
Navigating race day - What to look out for in the water and what to keep in mind.
Leverage your swim - Improving overall triathlon performance and conditioning through swimming.
Expert advice - Troubleshooting your wetsuit.
The goal of this episode is to broaden the understanding of open water swimming and how to prepare in order to put forward your best performance.
Jan Sibbersen Career Highlights
-German National Swim Team (1990 to 2000)
-Harvard University: Bachelor of Arts (B.A.), Economics (2000)
-Goldman Sachs New York and Frankfurt: Financial Analyst (2000 and 2002)
-IRONMAN Hawaii World Championships: Swim course record, 46:29min (2018)
-IRONMAN Hawaii World Championships: “First out of Water” (2001-2004)
-IRONMAN Germany: Swim time record holder, 42:17min (2004)
-IRONMAN Germany: “First out of Water” (2002-2004)
-IRONMAN Canada: "First out of Water" (2005,2006,2008)
-IRONMAN USA: "First out of Water" (2006)
-IRONMAN France: "First out of Water" (2007)
-Managed Patrick Lange: two-time IRONMAN World Champion (2016-2021)
Episode Timestamps
0:02-05:16 Introduction
5:23-8:53 Matt's News-ings
9:09-12:34 Word of the Week
Purple Patch Video Podcast and More
FuelIn - Comprehensive Nutrition Programming
Purple Patch Coaching Consultation
More on Jan Sibbersen and Sailfish
Free Webinar - Nail Your IRONMAN 70.3 and IRONMAN Race in 8-14 Hours Per Week
Training Camp - 2022 St.George Triathlon Camp
The Purple Patch Center is Open - Learn More and Schedule a Visit
Purple Patch Website and Newsletter
12:41-The Meat and Potatoes - Jan Sibbersen - (Part 2) - Insights and Training Tips to Improve Open Water Performance
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Full Transcript
Matt Dixon 00:02
I'm Matt Dixon, and welcome to the Purple Patch podcast. The mission of Purple Patch is to empower and educate every human being to reach their athletic potential. Through the lens of athletic potential, you reach your human potential. The purpose of this podcast is to help time-starved people everywhere, integrate sport into life.
Matt Dixon 00:24
I want to begin today by highlighting our partner InsideTracker. It's our relationship with InsideTracker that allows us to keep providing this education to you free. But more than that, we have a really close relationship and partnership due to our collective passion to help folks like you thrive in health, sport, and life. We want you to get the results that you're chasing in sport. But we also want you to build a platform of health so that you can keep doing what you love to do as long as you want to do it. So how does it work? Well, it's very simple, you just go and get a blood draw. And then InsideTracker would take care of the analysis of all of your biomarkers. But unlike irregular medical scales, that are just simply anchored in an absence of disease. InsideTracker is built around trying to get you to go from good to great. And that's a key difference there. Because along with their panel of experts and peer-reviewed research, they're going to give you recommendations where you can focus on, in which you're looking to improve and not just exist, we want you to thrive. And this is why we leverage it as a tool for performance with elite athletes to parents who are looking to optimize function in life. It's all peer-reviewed recommendations. And it gives you some focus around your nutrition, your stress, your training, and it's a tool that's going to help. Now, if you really want to amplify your strategy, you can always also add on a coaching consultation. And you can do that from one of the team at Fuelin, if you really want to make serious changes in your nutrition. And that's really valuable. Or if you're worried more about your training side of things. And then you can head out to the purple patch website and sign up with one of our coaches. And we'll help you filter the information and the recommendation from InsideTracker and help you dial in from there. It should be good. All you need to do is head to this link. Yes, that's insidetracker.com/purplepatch. And you can use the code purplepatchpro20. It's gonna get you 20% off everything at the store. All right, that sounds like a good one. Let's get on with the show.
Matt Dixon 02:43
And welcome to the Purple Patch Podcast as ever, your host, Matt Dixon. And guys, this is the second release of our video-enabled podcast. You can opt to listen via your regular podcast platform, that's absolutely fine. But now you also have the option to watch with all of the additional extras and bells and whistles. Goodness me it's fun. Either way, whichever medium you're listening through, I want to welcome you. And today it is part two of our discussion with part fish, Jan Sibberson. Jan is the fastest swimmer ever at the Hawaii Ironman World Championship. Yes, that's why I call him part fish. He's also the founder and CEO of Sailfish, a triathlon performance apparel company. Now he built that business from the ground up over the last 15 years. Last week, we dug into Jan's story, as well as some of the lessons of applying a championship mindset to building up a business from the ground up. And it was a fantastic discussion. If you missed it, I recommend that you go back. But today, we're going to dig into the other side of Jan's brain. We're gonna get going all into swimming today. And this is important, he has more than 35 years of competitive swimming experience. And so I thought, how can we miss this opportunity? This one is for the open water swimmers and the triathletes amongst you and I think you're going to enjoy. In today's show, you're going to learn three main things. The first is the key differences between pool swimming, and open water swimming and there is a vast difference. We're also going to break down some of the technical considerations and training considerations when you're seeking to prepare yourself for an open water swim. And we know that Jan is pretty good at that. And finally, I think a really important element that lots of triathletes will benefit from some of the recommendations and tips that Jan and I provide on How To overcome anxiety in open water. It can be a pretty daunting experience, and so we want to help you navigate through. And finally, Jan is going to have to answer the question what happens when you get on the rubber and you're clad in that Sailfish wet suit and you need to go to the bathroom. The answer does not include escape hatches. Jan is a wealth of information and insights and you're going to benefit from his wisdom. Now before we pass the baton over to Jan, let's do a couple of little salt sections because it is Matt's News-ings.
Matt Dixon 05:23
Yes, folks, Matt's News-ings, my section that couldn't be named for so long. And we've got a couple of quick notes. First, I want to talk about the video podcast because this is now our second show that we are hosting on video, as well as just over audio. And if you want to check it out, just head to the Purple Patch page on YouTube. But also, we would love your help. Now, of course, a positive review in the comments section, that's always nice. Make sure that you subscribe to the show, and even share it with your friends. That's just a wonderful first step. But personally, I would love your feedback as well. I would love your insights and thoughts on how we can grow. How can we actually improve this? If you've got ideas on how to ramp it up, amplify the engagement with you guys, the listeners. And some of the value of this video forum is going to be really, really helpful. And so I invite you to provide us with feedback.Hey, how can we improve this thing? It's our first crack at this. You can head to the comments section on the YouTube channel. Or of course, if you prefer private, or you've got some pretty hefty feedback to give us, feel free to email us directly. You can do that via info at purplepatchfitness.com. Because look, we're listening. We want to engage you guys. And we are looking to grow. What do they call it? Growth mindset. That's true. Love your feedback and your constructive ideas. And I hope that you enjoy the show. A lot of time and energy goes into it, and we want to make it the most valuable listening experience for you possible. Okay, good. Number two very important thing. Last week, I hosted a really valuable free webinar on preparing for your next Ironman, or Ironman 70.3. That's the Half Ironman distance. And I promised that you could do it in eight to fourteen hours. If you're half Ironman distance, it's more like eight to 12 hours. If you're straying towards Ironman, typically, it's 10 to 14 hours. Now we had more than 1000 registrants for this webinar. And a lot of follow-up. It was a lot for our team to handle. But I wanted to make sure that you don't miss out on the fun, you can still grab the recording, all you need to do is register for the event now, even though it's already gone, and we will send you the recording. As a part of that offer, I provide you details on how you can have a complimentary call with a Purple Patch team member so that you can thread the needle of life and training and make sure that you can successfully integrate your training into life while achieving the results that you want to do. Details are at the events page at purplepatchfitness.com. Or just follow the link in the show notes. So this one here for you guys that are watching. And while you can't attend live, it's a part of history now, you can still get the recording and I think it's helpful. Finally, on Matt's News-ings, I want to tell you about a new book, Steve Magness. The title of the book is Do Hard Things: Why We Get Resilience Wrong and the Surprising Science of Real Toughness. I tell you, it's a super read. I was very lucky I got an advanced copy of this. And if you're a listener to this show, you're gonna find a lot of Steve's insights and thoughts will really resonate with you. I encourage you to grab a coffee, a coffee? A copy, excuse me. It's released this week. And with that, I think it is time to say goodbye to Matt's News-ings. Because for the viewers at home, you see where we're going? Are you gonna see Barry for the first time maybe? Yep. Because yes, it is time for Word of the Week.
Matt Dixon 08:53
Yes, it is Word of the Week. And this week the Word of the Week is capacity. Why do I choose capacity this week well I want to address a misconception for folks who are seeking to integrate performance training and good habits into your life. You see, one of the common mistakes that I see people make is the mistake of believing that adhering to good habits of sleep, consistent exercise or training, even positive habits around eating, means that you have to "do more." I need to find time as though you're adding something extra into your life. I think this is the wrong mindset. Life is stressful. It's full of demand. You, all of us, are going to face challenges. You're going to be met by unpredictable roadblocks. Times where it all just feels too much. And the truth is that what's really challenging for Robert over there is really different than what might be stressful for Jill. But the key is that we all face high demand and challenge, the quest, and it is your quest, our quest, the quest is to build our capacity to absorb and navigate these times of challenge, we want to make sure that you don't crack when the going gets tough. It's not about running away from challenges and hiding, because it will get tough. The key is that you need to have the capacity to thrive through those times of stress. In fact, sometimes you need to thrive because of the times of stress. And so you to do that need capacity. And successfully finding your performance recipe is going to provide you the scope to actually do more, adapt more, and be more effective. And it's logical because it's true. So the next time you think I don't have time, realize that that's a myth. I work with the very busiest people in the world. And most of them realize that they need to ensure that they integrate their performance recipe into their life so that they can perform sustainably. And it's not easy. But it begins with a commitment. And from that commitment, you build habits and from those habits, you build capacity, for your health, for your life, and for your sport. And that's our Word of the Week. Okay, now, a quick commercial, we need to actually say this, we need to tip our hat Yes, it's InsideTracker. You can leverage the toolbox of recommendations and insights around your health, longevity, and performance to ensure that you get the biggest bang for your buck in performance. Don't just work hard. Make sure that you place your focus on the things that are going to help you leverage and yield adaptation and gains. All you need to do is head to insidetracker.com/purplepatch and use the code purplepatchpro20. And you have unlocked the gift of performance. But now as we head back to the show, I get to welcome Jan Sibberson. This week, it's all about swimming. We leverage the 35 years of experience and for the first time I get to say on video, ladies and gentlemen it is time for The Meat and Potatoes.
Matt Dixon 12:41
Alright, guys, it is the meat and potatoes and we welcome back Jan Sibberson. Part two of my conversation. Jan, the founder of Sailfish, also the fastest swimmer ever at the Hawaii Ironman World Championships. Jan, welcome once again. Thanks so much for coming back to the show.
Jan Sibbersen 12:59
Thanks so much Matt. Looking forward to the - round two.
Matt Dixon 13:02
Round two. In the last episode we dug into your life and journey and had a fabulous discussion on the journey of Sailfish, around performance mindset, perspective, navigating failure, and your relationship with stress, really insightful. And for you guys that are listening, today I recommend that if you hadn't haven't listened to that episode one, go back because it provides so much of the grounding for today's episode but if you did, and you carry on you don't pause and come back to the show later you can - we can all hold hands together and we get going because today we are going to head into a more specific subject and one that you have almost four decades of experience in swimming. And you have offered to get onto the hot seat today and provide some of your perspective and insights into open water swimming and so guys we are going to dig into Jan's brain. He's got a great experience through elite pool swimming and of course open water swimming. We can label you the fastest IRONMAN swimmer ever. And so if you are ready fasten your seat belt captain. Are you ready to spill the beans?
Jan Sibbersen 14:17
Absolutely. Go ahead.
Matt Dixon 14:20
I'm very interested to see whether we're going to get into some coaching debate and arguments or we'll agree on everything but we shall see either way it's going to be a fruitful discussion so so good stuff. So as we talked about in the first episode, you grew up a pool swimmer I also learned that it included very high-level ski racing and windsurfing and all sorts of other sports mountain biking but your main sport growing up was pool swimming, you went up to the finals of the Olympic trials, you competed on the national team. And where I'd love to start - you and I grew up in the same generation. I want to give the folks listening a little bit of insight into how your swim training was right when you're at the height of pool swimming. What was your - What did your swim training look like? How many hours? How many meters a week? Give me some color on your swim training at that time.
Jan Sibbersen 15:19
That was a long time ago, first of all. But maybe to put things a bit in perspective. I actually did the math, not recently, but this was, must have been like 10 years ago or so. And I added up because I always had a training - I kept a file on my swim training. And I added up all the kilometers I swam in my life, and it ended up being around 50,000 kilometers. So that's, that's when you take the equator, it's actually more than once around the entire world. So I've been in the water a little bit. But now to break it down on a more level that you can grasp. A typical - I swam - I was a freestyle long-distance freestyle swimmer. So that means 400 and 1500 Free in the long course meters pool. And an average week would be 50 to 60 kilometers of swimming. The high volume week would be 70, 80. I did have a week with 100 kilometers in the pool. But that was like one week, and then you know, it wasn't really sustainable. But you would swim, let's say 12 to 13 practices a week, and usually with either Sunday, yeah Sunday would be off or, or only one easy practice on Sunday. So that would be that will be the training as a swimmer, plus some dry land training on top of it. And yeah.
Matt Dixon 17:00
And of those sessions, you had 13 sessions a week, how many - this is a leading question, I'm gonna lead on with this, but how many of the 12 or 13 sessions were specifically focused on technique, you're obviously always thinking about your technique, but were there many sessions that were really focused on technique.
Jan Sibbersen 17:20
As a matter of fact, very, very few. And I think that you know, when you - in swimming, it's, you know, obviously, you go from level to level, so you start as a junior, and then you make it to like a junior team, and then you get into a bigger team, and so on and so forth. But it's kind of like maybe it's a natural selection process, but it's kind of like expected from you if you once you compete at a national level, that your technique is in good shape. However, you know, we would go into the, like, into the swimming into the channel, where you would swim on -
Jan Sibbersen 18:00
The flume, that's what you call it? Okay. And they will do very, very specific technique analysis. And, and those would be like, the really like the tiny little pieces. And that's something that as a swimmer only you would, but also as a triathlete, you know, we would also always train the technique part at the beginning of a practice, when you're still fresh in your mind, and you're fresh, and the body is still fresh. But in order to change something in the technique, you know, it would, it will take forever, because, you know, your, the way you move it's so much in your body, it's so worked in it, you know, and I think it takes about three months, three weeks or so to create a different habit. And if you just change the position of your hand a little bit, and you have to think about it like every single time. So it's actually probably harder for a really good swimmer to change technique than for somebody who doesn't swim very often because the movement is not so ingrained in the brain. So pure technique sessions would happen at the beginning of the season. So let's say September, October November for the swim part. And then you would only look back once, twice, three times a week and look back at your technique. However, that was the 90s. I know that things have changed quite a bit and also what you know you probably remember Matt is in the 90s it was a lot about more is better and better and people and coaches have come away from that for the right reasons. Because, because even I realized, after my swimming career that, you know, I was probably on very, very few occasions I was I was really rested. You know, I would, I would, there were so many occasions where I would go into swim meets into races where I was just tired when I already got up on the block. And that is something I think that more modern training philosophy has changed. And that's when also the technique part has become more important, the value of working a bit more on technique has become more important. And, yeah, it always, you know, you always as you know, we have to put things into perspective, you know, where does the athlete come from? Where does he want to be? How much emphasis on this and this and this? Do you want to be in Kona? Do you just want to finish your first 70.3 or so? It's always a very individual question. But the technique part is a part it that definitely shouldn't be underestimated.
Matt Dixon 18:00
The flume.
Matt Dixon 21:04
It's funny, I always reflect on my own swimming career and realize how much performance I left - now I was a slow learner and I think I did the same thing if not worse, in triathlon, I drove myself into the ground with the help of some pretty poor coaching. But in swimming, I always reflect I was a part of a high-volume program if you want to call it that. And it was every day was threshold and I think I was the walking embodiment of fit and fatigued, showing up to races just being tired and certainly left performance on the track. Yeah. And, and I think that's ingrained in us then that I went on and took up my own journey of triathlon and, and took the same work ethic, the same drilling, despite really, sort of should have known better I had my background and clinical physiology, I'd already been coaching, swimming and thought, hang on, this is kind of crazy. We need to be more rested, and yet I drove myself into the ground in triathlon. So I want that grounding now, in the early 2000s, when you were racing triathlons with the pursuit of a good overall performance, as we talked about in the prior episode, but at the same time, you were hopeful of breaking the course record in Kona. And so how was your training? Give us some insight into that. Did you do the same thing as me, perhaps slightly smarter, but the same thing as me of taking high work ethic and bigger volume into the overall triathlon, and your swimming training to try and break that Kona course record in the early 2000s?
Jan Sibbersen 22:41
Well, you know, it was a double-edged sword, because you need a different training for a 45-minute swim or a 46-minute swim than for a 10-hour triathlon. However, what I did realize back then, was that quality work and overall fitness was something that you could train so well in the pool, and also the intensity stuff, you recover so much quicker from pool intensity than from running intensity. And, you know, I was never a great runner, but you know, I would still run a 10k in a 33:30, or in an Olympic distance race, and I could, I could ride under an hour, in an Olympic distance race, and I hardly did any speed work in the cycling and in the running. And why did I, why didn't I do it, because I knew if I did speed work on the running, I've been swimming all my life, I'd be injured very quickly. And, and I also knew that the engine was there, and the engine could be trained in the water. So that's why, you know, when I look at my Olympic performance, racing, or Olympic distance racing, that was, you know, was basically continuing some of the key elements of my swimming career and then just adding low-intensity riding and low intensity running just to get used to those different movements, to the sport. Now for, for IRONMAN, and then for trying to break the swimmer record, that's a different ballgame. Then I actually shifted the endurance work or let's say that just the endurance fitness, to cycling and to running. And I really only focused on the swim-specific stuff and like the threshold stuff that you talked about, but I also didn't swim 12 or 13 times a week anymore. I swim four or five times a week. So you get in, you swim, you know, I would swim for or five times 4 to 5k. That'll bring that brings you to 20 to 25k. But bear in mind, you know, you've got all these lifetime kilometers and lifetime mileage that you really draw from after you've done this for more than 10, 15 years, it doesn't go away overnight. And so you don't need to do that anymore. But you just have to do the specific stuff, you know, to keep - the stuff that, that that hurts the most in training. But that keeps you swimming at a certain pace for a long time. And then you just complement the whole thing with some riding and some running and some overall fitness core work, you name it.
Matt Dixon 25:40
And how about when you came back in 2017-18, you're now 40 to 43 when you finally broke the course record. Was it a similar approach to that, because that was quite a narrow focus. That was purely around 45 to 46 minutes swim, and enough to survive, and hopefully have a fun day after it you weren't, you weren't. You were completing not competing for the rest of that event, which was probably a lot of fun, by the way, you're successful, and you're gonna have fun, but you're also 43. And so you still had all of those miles, you still had all of the, you know, navigating the world's worth of swimming, which is such a massive base, if you want to call it that that will never go away. At the same time, you're 43 years of age, and you're not 27 anymore. So did it look any different from that? Or was it really that and even more polarized? I'm really interested in that side...
Jan Sibbersen 26:39
Hugely different, hugely different. So two things. Number one, I qualified for the 2018 race, I qualified late 2017. So that was a huge, huge asset because basically, I had one year to prepare. And I knew that I would need a lot of time in the pool, and not worry about qualifying for Kona, let's say in June or July, and then trying to get the swim my swim acts together in two or three months' time. So that was really, really beneficial in that quest for the record that I had that slot very early, basically 11 months out. Number two, and that that that pertains to the training part. The biggest difference and it was actually striking how big of a difference it was. Was the recovery time. And it really was completely different than 20 years ago, how long it took me even to recover from intensive swimming or intense sets in the pool. And how often I could actually do my focus sets, right? So I have a pretty much set program for an IRONMAN swim. It's a six, seven-week swim program that I've done every time that I race, Kona. I'm not going to share it trust me. No, but it's not that sophisticated. But it usually you know, there's a there is a set of 800s on Monday, there is a set of 400s on Tuesday. And there is some intensive work of 200s on Wednesday, there is usually an easy day on Thursday, and then there's 100s and short stuff on Friday, and then you play on Saturday and you take Sunday off. So that's in you know, in a nutshell, that's as specific as it gets. But and - back in the days, you know, I could do the 800 well I could do the 400 well, and then I would go at it with high intensity on the 200s on Wednesday. No way, you know I...
Matt Dixon 28:54
You're turning into an old man.
Jan Sibbersen 28:58
Yeah, you become an old man and it really, it really changed a lot. So I focused a lot on physiotherapy, I'm getting massages, for recovery on good sleep on food. I mean, back in the days, you know, it was about carbohydrates. And that's it and get as much as you can. But that changed obviously a lot as well. And you know, you look at all these little tiny things to get the performance together. And when you get older, but it was really the biggest challenge was that was the recovery in the quest for that record. Yeah.
Matt Dixon 29:43
Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. Well, we're gonna come back to the record because I want to ask about focus and going through that experience a little bit but I want to draw come back to technique a little bit and want to start to draw some insights for you. The differences in preparing for open water versus pool. You grew up as a pool swimmer as I did, you raced and had a lot of success in open water. I find that a lot of the triathlon media, if you want to call it that, really promotes this huge focus on everyday triathletes having drill drill drill to get better, better for improvement, and a lot of those drills derive from pool swimming. So I'd love your perspective on what you see as the key elements of sort of swim readiness for triathlon swimmers, and I think we need to do, what we need to do, if we can, is try and break this apart because there are very different sort of spectrums of triathlon swimmers. So let's, let's break it apart and sort of those that are may be emerging from some form of background in youth swimming and, and sort of are swimmers if you want to label it like that, reasonable level swimmers, folks that are swimming under 105, or 110, in Ironman and that end of it. And then we have adult-onset swimmers, where the swim is a clear weakness, and they don't have that. So if you're sort of, maybe you can break this into two parts. The differences for you between the pool and open water swimming are some of the things to think about in techniques specifically for open water. That's a big question. I know. But -
Jan Sibbersen 31:19
It's, it's a big one. And but you're right and you know, you have to really dissect it and take it, take it apart and who are you, who are we talking to right? So, so let's start with the folks who have a swimming background. Because I think for them, it's naturally a little bit easier. Because they don't have to focus so much on the technique work, right? And again, you know, the next question would be, you know, how often - what's the purpose? What's the, what's the athletes' goal? And also, how much time do they have, you know, do they swim twice a week, or do they swim four times a week, so, but for a good swimmer, we all know, it doesn't, you know, the swimming, it never gets lost. So once you have that basic coordination, and you have a decent stroke, that swimming never goes away, and you bet - you have to have - you get a couple of sessions in and you're back on track. So so I think for those who have that swimming background, going into the water two to three times a week, obviously, that consistency is absolute key, doing a little bit of technique work, but mostly focusing on really your swim and getting your swim up to speed is the key to a good swim performance. Now speaking about open water, how to translate that into open water. I mean, we've - I think we've all seen it - how good pool swimmers sometimes completely fail in open water. And it's because you know that it's an unfamiliar environment, you're not used to it, it's cold, you're wearing a wetsuit, and so on and so forth. There are stressful situations in a race start, in a mass start. So the best way to address that is to familiarize yourself with all these situations and train it. And if you know that your open water swimming performance lacks or really is behind your pool swimming performance, then I would strongly recommend you swim in open water way more often than in the pool. Because that's the only way to get better is to get used to it and to train that I was lucky or I am lucky because for some reason it came naturally to me and I think I swim in a very, very straight line when it comes to open water. And that's really what it comes down to you have to, you know, the straighter line you swim and the less you have to look up and look for orientation, the more efficient and consequently the faster the swim is going to be. But those are like the main points, now in contrary or in contrast, if you don't have a swimming background, and you know is there still lots of stroke work and technique and drill work that needs to be done. You know, it only helps usually when you have somebody standing on the deck on the pool deck. You can do all the drills in the world, you can do all the technique work in the world. But if you don't get immediate feedback from someone who's watching you, it's really hard to improve it over time. Because you know, you're trying essentially what it's all about is to reduce your resistance in the water. And that's what what what let's say seven out of ten triathletes, what they can work on is reducing resistance and whether it's a foot sticking out or whether it's the head coming doing weird things and you know, there's a lot of stuff happening, that is not helping you in, that is distracting you from swimming faster, it's really reducing, reducing the resistance. So, for those, I would recommend, you know, get your - try to get someone and it doesn't some it's nice if it's a coach but sometimes it's even your swimming buddy next to you who might be a better swimmer if he or she has a look at your at what you're doing to get to give you that feedback. So to objective, to make it objective from what your subjective feeling is. You feel something you think you're doing something, but maybe, in reality, you're doing something completely different. And to get that in line, so that you then actually know I actually am doing this with my elbow, or I'm doing this and this with my hand. That's the key to becoming a better swimmer if you're not a good swimmer. Translating that into the open water is, of course, even more difficult, but you got to start somewhere, but it's probably in the pool.
Matt Dixon 36:07
Yeah, a lot of triathletes, and this is becoming more prevalent, rather than less prevalent, tend to be really anchored around that word specificity and actually choose to swim alone quite often. Because they think I've got my special workout from my coach that I need to go and do and they go and swim alone. And they don't have any accountability, they don't have any support, they don't get to actually observe a little bit other swimmers that - apart from them, they don't get any feedback. And quite often it can be challenging because you need to try and find a group environment that is, is also - you're getting good feedback. It's not just about getting feedback, it's about getting objective, good feedback that can help you and not confuse you. But generally, I think swimming with other people firstly makes it a lot more fun. But there also is this amplified accountability, and I think that's a part of it. I think that even for adult-onset swimmers, it's very easy for them to hate the sport, understandably, because it's such a hurdle to actually improve. But one of the ways to improve the sport is to improve their love for the sport. And the process is to go and do it with other people and make it part way social and then get feedback. So that it's incremental, which I think is, is important,
Jan Sibbersen 37:37
I fully agree it's, you know, next to next to technique, or having a halfway decent technique, the number one key to success is swimming with somebody else that is this tiny little bit faster than you and you always want to, you know, the there and the lady next to you and you just want to hang on. And it works wonders, it goes such a long way. And again, it's the social aspect, it's the fun aspect. And for those of you out there who you know who are not so good swimmers and I get that - I can tell you that the first time or when you pick up swimming on a more regular basis, and when you actually then start to feel the water and you feel the resistance of the water and resistance in that respect, in a good way where you feel the resistance when you pull through it not by sticking out something, but back to when you grab to the water and you feel it in your hand and you can push it back. It's an amazing feeling. And but it only happens with consistency and you know, and getting familiarized and having fun, and it will come but it's - sometimes it's a long process.
Matt Dixon 38:49
I do want to come back with the more established swimmers because I think you also anchored on something that that is not really discussed too much, which is really important where if you grew up a swimmer to any level or high school swimmer maybe and you stopped or maybe a collegiate swimmer, you're in a very controlled environment. And you've got lane lines on the other side you've got a guiding line, you've got dead flat water outside other people in the lane and stuff. And what you've got is a whole other world that you need to up-skill and have perspective around the environment, the challenge, and the different terrain without actually great guidance. You don't have a line at the bottom of the lake traditionally.
Jan Sibbersen 39:36
Unless you go to Lake Placid right.
Jan Sibbersen 39:38
Lake Placid is the only place, but there's a whole element of being in the elements, that is a wonderful opportunity, but you have to actually - you're not going to get there by doing 2, 3, 4, 5 races a year and those be your only open water swims. The only way to close that delta is familiarity and skill acquisition, including by the way, unless you're very lucky and, your name is Sibbersen, which is to learn how to swim in a straight line. And that is how to sight properly. And I'm always amazed at how relatively established swimmers sometimes just really even don't know the mechanics of sighting where it can be integrated into the rhythm of your stroke, it doesn't disrupt, there isn't deceleration where it's, it's almost as equal if not the same as if you're not sighting. So I think there's this whole world of opportunity that that may be established, or people with a greater swim background take for granted and don't realize that's actually a big growth opportunity for improvements in many ways. So.
Jan Sibbersen 40:44
Absolutely. And then you mentioned the, you know, incorporating in your, the breathing part to the or the sighting to the front into your, into your stroke, so that it doesn't interrupt your stroke, it's something that you can train perfectly in the pool. And, and I think what also some experienced swimmers don't realize is, you know, the more you look up on average, the more your feet and your legs go down, and that'll have a big, big impact on your speed. So, you know, if you look up every third, every fourth stroke, you know, that'll have sooner or later probably sooner than later have a big impact on your speed versus, you know, I'm not saying you need to, you need to look up every 20th time or so but probably like somewhere between 6, 8 or 10 strokes and then and then looking once to the front. That's kind of a rhythm that you can get into. And that won't, that won't slow you down over time. It's something that I see all the time. And you'll see it, especially on the second part of the swim course or on the last third. That's when the good swimmers or the good open water swimmers gain proportionally the most versus everybody else on the field. It's not in the beginning, it's not in the middle, it's towards the end when everybody else's stroke falls apart, or they have looked up all the time, and they just get tired. And that's something that everybody can train very well beforehand and, and avoid those kinds of situations.
Matt Dixon 42:25
No, I think it's good. I want to move on to another element. That's a real challenge for the more adult-onset swimmers. Although not exclusively them, I should point out, and you might actually be challenged to answer this so let's see, I want to talk about fear and anxiety. And it is really common with the open water environment. It is a - we talked in the last episode about high stress. And for many, in fact, the majority of triathletes standing on the line, the swim start, and the swim itself, really represents a massive form of stressor, both in terms of what's underneath the water, but also being in very close contact, it's really turbulent, it's the start of the race. And so many people step forward into that first race or that first discipline of the race and just think, I just want this part to be over and then I can get on with my race. And that's really debilitating. It's performance, debilitating. It's not very enjoyable. And so, I'd love it if you have any insights around how a fearful swimmer can navigate high stress, and how can they actually get over that hurdle.
Jan Sibbersen 43:41
That's, that's a very difficult one, to be honest with you. And to be 100% blunt. I think it's to some degree, it's also oftentimes the race organizers of the large corporations, to put it that way, that prohibit sometimes the swimmers from warming up before the race, I think it would be so instrumental and so helpful, and I know sometimes it might be tough for the organizers to do that, but to almost make it mandatory for everybody to get in the water before the swim start and be able to warm up at least 5 minutes, possibly 10 minutes, just to familiarize yourself with the element. You know, oftentimes it's early in the morning, it's cold, it's windy, it's whatever, but once you've been in there already and once you've done that, you've kind of like shaken off that first level of anxiety and that first - because if it all comes together and you know let's say you know you're standing there, you haven't really warmed up and then the gun goes off and you jump in and then you've got everything at once, you've got cold water, you've got people around you, it might be dark, you don't know where you're going. You know I mean, I would be stressed right? and it's natural. So I think that's the one, and the only thing is really getting into the water before the swim start and being able to warm up, that would alleviate a lot of the stress already. And everybody else, if you're a beginner, and if you haven't experienced that, you just have to, you know, give it those extra one or two minutes that the masses are gone and just jump in last. And you know, you pass some people on the swim. But it's so much better and so much more enjoyable if you start slowly, and then ease your way into it. And then, but don't worry about this minute or so that you lose, you lose a lot more if you get a panic attack, or if you get pushed under the water or anything like that. That's the only advice I have for you.
Matt Dixon 45:49
I absolutely agree. And there is something, in fact, you know, I've got a boy who's 10 and, and he has performance anxiety, which is normal across all areas of life. And one of the sorts of guiding rules over any sort of anything that creates anxiety and fear - case in point last week, he had to go and train in his swimming with the older kids, he's like what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen. You know it's very important that he had to navigate that exposure. Because if we said, oh, don't go, then that wall would get bigger for next time. And those experiences - so going through and, and experiencing it, even if it's uncomfortable is really important. So there's nothing like getting in and realizing, Oh, just as Baxter did when he went to that, oh, it's actually not quite as bad. And that's really like that familiarity of hang on, I'm going to be okay is really important, of course, that you can do that in a training element that if you are really fearful, meet yourself where you're at and do short bouts of exposure with a buddy or a group of friends, not by yourself and doing it in training is really valuable. And then my last point in there because I can't help but be a little bit of a coach - some of the people that have had the biggest anxiety and fear when they have successfully done what you outlined there, have been the very people that have fallen in love with swimming the most. And that's - if you're really fearful and you have anxiety, it's impossible to appreciate that. But so many people, in fact, we've had a guest on this show, a very, very successful executive Carmel Galvin, but she, I remember her joining - the years that you were chasing swim course records, originally, she was with us in Hawaii, she couldn't go to the beach, because she couldn't face the water. You know, she was so fearful of water couldn't swim, and now has gone through what we talk about, and now loves open water more than anyone I know. And it's, it's when you come out the other side, you really have the opportunity to, to just start to enjoy it, which I know is, is maybe a carrot, but maybe a carrot that you - that people that are anxious, can't see quite so much. But, but it's great. It's great advice. I want to shift to come back to that 46 and a half minute or so swim. And I want to focus on the word focus, because it's 46 minutes, which you are going at your maximal steady state, in an environment which is open, it's dynamic, you know if you're swimming the mile, as they call it, 1500 meters in the pool, you know that you're doing laps in the pool, you're really breaking down a big problem into little problems. But now you are trying to break this swim course record, and you're swimming in no man's land. So it's a really extended period of time, 45 minutes where you are forced to maintain focus on the project and high output. And you don't have to be chasing a swim course record to have that demand in a race. And so, how did you, I wonder whether you even thought about this before, but how did you maintain your attention for that 45 or 46 and a half-minute swim course record? What were some of the tools that you use to keep on task?
Jan Sibbersen 49:34
Trust me, I took that swim apart into every little detail you could possibly imagine. I had a lot of thinking time for 10 years between 2004 and - more than that it was like 13 to 14 years. So So when it comes to the Kona swim, I think I don't know every wave but I do know, and not every turtle, but I do know quite a bit about it. So first off, you know, you're not, you're not in uncharted territory. You are, I don't remember exactly, but I think there is there is like 10 buoys along the way, something around. So I think the, you know, you just count the buoys, and then you know, every 150 meters or so there's a buoy. And so then you pretty much if you don't, you know, that helps you from. So I think the biggest mistake you can make is, is just swimming and not really watching things and not paying attention and so on. So you want to be alert, it's just like on the bike when you have to watch your, your nutrition, and you gotta make sure you get all the stuff in and there is never like a dull moment, there's always something to think about. So it never gets boring. And, and, and you want to make sure that it doesn't get boring during that swim, whether it takes you 46 minutes, or an hour and a half. So, you know, I broke down, I broke the swim down into four segments, because it's roughly four kilometers and, and maybe broke down the first segment of the first 1000 meters into also the, let's say, the initial start and the first three 400 meters. So you know, obviously, super, super important in my case is when the gun goes off that nobody really touches you hits you or that you don't swim against the surfboard super, super important because it's like I right there and the kayakers and it's probably one of the most critical moments of the race. So once, you know, once I've achieved that, and I'm gone, and I have like two meters on everybody else, and there are still people on my feet. It's that first surge, and then you know, you swim. Not all out but relatively hard on the edge for the first 50-100 meters or so. And this would be the first time when I would take a little peek back and see, you know, who was around me? Is there another train on the left or on the right? And where's the first buoy? or, you know, maybe sometimes you're not focusing on buoy number one, but you go straight for buoy number two, just for from the angle that you swim out. So I think I was aiming for a buoy like buoy three or buoy four because I was relatively far to the left, so relatively far away from the pier. And then I would say and again, we're talking about we were talking about the fear and anxiety before I did a really, really proper warm-up for this race. So I got up at three o'clock at night, and we had a little pool in the house that was like seven meters long, like what is that like maybe eight, eight yards or so. And I actually got in my wetsuit, in my full suit and I swam 200 300 laps between 3 AM and 3:30 AM at night in the dark, in the complete darkness, and really get my body to a point where I was like fully hot, like super warmed up.
Jan Sibbersen 53:08
And, and then because that allows you to really go from the gun, you know, if your body realizes the gun goes off, and then use, you know, the engine needs to be, it needs to be already at 100% or at 98% at least. And you build up less lactate. I mean, that's, that's super, super important. So maybe 200 meters into the swim. Luckily, I realized that there was nobody on my feet anymore. And then I would immediately switch the pace to go slower. And to go into a rhythm that I was just familiar with from training in terms of turnover, and I knew at a certain turnover. And as this is something you only learn with experience, it's not something that falls out of the sky, that I would swim at that pace and at that turnover and I knew it had to feel super, super, super easy that first 1000 meters and I did exactly that. And you just basically keep it all together you keep it streamlined. Was a very, luckily, it was a very calm day in the water so there wasn't much and that was one of the major reasons that the record fell that day that the outside factors also played in my favor. But yeah, so continuing on the swim, you know you count the buoys, you know where you are, and then subsequently, you know, it's getting a bit harder on the second half of the first half. Then no mistakes around the 90-degree turns around the boats. Don't swim into the boat. Don't go too close. Don't go too far away. Don't get tangled up in any loose ropes that sometimes are around there. Yeah. And then you know you do that second turn and then you go back home towards the pier. And so that's let's say, the third quarter. And then it gets hard. And you know, it's getting hard, right? And then you wonder, is there a current? Or is there no current? Do you have the current in your favor or against you? I didn't wear a watch. So in all my other attempts before, I was wearing a watch, and I had a really quick peek on the watch, but I felt, I felt that it didn't help me. And it really, you only stress about it. Because you don't know what the current is doing. And if the current, you know, you can be at the turnaround buoy at 20 minutes, which I have been before, and then you come home and it's 47, you're like, what the hell happened on the way back. And it is the current at Kona. So and trust me as the more the - I mean, you know this - but the more the pain comes, the more you stay on focus, right, you are focused. So you want to get back home. And I think the last 800 meters or so it's really a question of willpower, it has nothing to do anymore. There's not much more, you know, you don't think about technique or anything, it's really just making it there. And the waves are getting bigger, because there's been a lot of boats, right driving around, and the sun has come up and everything gets a bit messy. But this is when you really - when I really went for the fight. And it's just a fight. That's what it is. Yeah, and well, then, then it happened. And it was a great rest of the day, even though ya know, I hadn't really trained much for cycling and running. But it's the joyful feeling is just second to none.
Matt Dixon 56:45
You had a very brief moment to celebrate with, with the people there and then you have many hours telling everyone, you don't know what I've done, you'll be able to celebrate with your friends and family for - until the finish line - Hey, everyone, look, I - promise me - this is a fantastic story. But it is like everything else outside the initial surge and setting it up. There's a lot of patience there in that swim as well. You're building and setting up and you know, in parentheses easy into building into taking care of all of the logistics, to prepare yourself for that final surge where ultimately the opportunity meets the occasion. And ultimately, that's where you that's where you're face to - forced to look in the mirror and find out what you're made of. And that was it, wasn't it?
Jan Sibbersen 57:42
Absolutely. It's, it's really in the beginning, it's holding back, holding back. But again, it was lucky that there was nobody else because as long as there's somebody else on your feet, you know, you don't want to take chances. And you have to get in my case, I knew I had to get rid of everyone. And only then you can you know, you can pace it the way you want to pace it. And it has to do with age as well. I mean, you don't take lactate as well as at age 43 as you take it at age 25. Yeah, it's a whole different ballgame. So you gotta be really I had to be really, really careful in order to not to overdo it in the beginning.
Matt Dixon 58:25
So I got a couple more questions. One is actually around triathletes. We alluded to this a little bit earlier around your training, and I think it was actually in the last episode, but a lot of triathletes undervalue the swim portion. And, and you'll hear a lot of, well it makes up the smallest percentage of the race or the opportunity is really tough to make gains in swimming, particularly for an adult-onset swimmer but you know, I can't make any gains versus I can really improve my run where I've really struggled before and so I'm not going to swim or I'm going to minimize my swimming. So as a swimmer yourself, as you come out of just the swim course record and you reflect on your triathlon training more globally, because you did have a successful triathlon career, particularly, you know, obviously outside of Hawaii where you were looking to qualify or looking to really be competitive. What's your perspective on that? What would you say to those that really like to focus just on the bike and running?
Jan Sibbersen 59:25
Well, I think you're losing out quite a bit. I think the positive factors and aspects of swimming for your overall performance are sometimes maybe not that in your face, but they are there. And you know, as I said earlier, it's - you can do so much in the pool or you can do so much in the swimming pool for the rest of your race. Number one, your specific fitness in swimming if, you know, if you put focus more focus on swimming, is going to be so much better. So you're going to have a better swim. Number two, especially when you're not only swimming or training freestyle but you also alternate, and this is something that I realized, if you swim a bit of IM, individual medley, during training that it's so amazing for your overall conditioning and it helps so much for the bike and also for the run. I found it super, super beneficial. And lastly, you know, I also alluded to this earlier, you recover relatively quickly from intense swimming workouts, much quicker than from cycling or running. So the engine, the heart, you know, the cardiovascular stuff, you know, even if you can do a lot in the pool, if you are, let's say a little bit injured for the run, you can compensate for that in the water. So I would never underestimate and just look at it from a proportion. Okay, swimming is the least proportion. So I have to do the least for it. I wouldn't look at it this way, I think it is a great way to elevate your overall performance and also most likely keep you away from injuries to a certain degree at least.
Matt Dixon 1:01:26
Well I'm glad I asked you that question because I couldn't agree more so so I think it's good I think it's a great lever that a lot of people miss out on their overall performance and particularly people that are actually ironically frustrated with their run performance and frustrated with injury cycles, it's like actually lean into swimming more it's a great cross-pollinator of building the engine and then do enough for tissue resilience to stay healthy on the run but maybe remove some of that intensity and your overall performance can come up so I think it's a great opportunity. So I want to finish today your primary product, how you started Sailfish was around wetsuits. So we have to finish the show talking about wetsuits a little bit. And, and I find a lot of folks have a tough time swimming in a wetsuit for lots of reasons. So I'd love your advice. So I've got a few quick hits. And [unintelligible]. So the first one, a common complaint, people getting into a wet suit brand agnostic, let's not worry about the brand right now. Their shoulders getting tired. What are some of the advice on that I feel like I swim and my shoulders get tired, what are some of the causes of that, that you find?
Jan Sibbersen 1:02:40
8 out of 10 times a wet suit is not put on correctly. And that's it's, it's, it strikes me how often I see it, that sometimes you know, the wetsuit is just barely over your hand. And there's, it's super stretched already around the shoulders, or it's like halfway down the legs. And, of course, then there's a lot of material missing up here. And it restricts you, and it can be the best and most expensive wetsuit in the world, but If it doesn't, if you don't put it up on correctly, then, you know, it won't suit you and you'll get tired really quickly. I said 8 out of 10 times, so the other two times I hear that it's usually at the beginning of the season, the first - if I haven't been in a wetsuit in three, four, or five months' time, and I get in the wetsuit for the first or the second time of the year, you know, it's different, it's still a wetsuit, and so you have to train in it at least three, four or five times, and then it will become more natural. So those are the two most common things why that happens.
Matt Dixon 1:03:45
Okay, the second most common thing here chafing, really bad chafing, particularly obviously around the neck, but also other places on the wet suit. What's the antidote to that?
Jan Sibbersen 1:03:56
Yeah, again, the same thing, putting it on correctly, and there are tons of lubricant products out there to put to apply to your skin. I would recommend not applying the lubricant maybe just immediately before the swim, but especially like in a place like okay, Kona is not a wetsuit swim now, but let's say you do, do a race, the first thing in the morning, you apply sunscreen, and you apply the lubricant. Like when after you stand up, after you get up, because then you already have a base layer, kind of like on your skin. And then when you put on your wetsuit and you do it again, but that first base layer in the morning, that already helps a lot because the skin can absorb it. That's what I would do.
Matt Dixon 1:04:40
Yeah, that's great advice. It's really good. How about folks that struggle to get the wetsuit off?
Jan Sibbersen 1:04:45
My advice is, as soon as you get out of the water, you're allowed to take the wetsuit off to your hips. Do that immediately because as long as you have that little film of water between your skin or your body and the wetsuit, it comes off super easily. If you run to a transition zone first that is half a mile away, and all the water has gone out of your suit already. It's much, much harder to get that off, right. And then the second part is if you take off the legs, and you'll see what happens there, sometimes it's, it looks funny from the outside, the balancing acts and the ballerinas that you see sometimes, but you know, take it easy and just sit down. It's even if you have to sit down on the grass and pull the suit over your heels because that's usually where the fact where you can't get it off. It's much less stress stressful. So just take a moment, sit down, take it off, get back up again, and off you go. You don't have to be a pro and just like slap it off like this. But yeah, take it easy.
Matt Dixon 1:06:02
I'm going to give you my last question of our marathon of questioning, it's going to be a softball for you because you can let in the newer triathletes or the non-triathletes listening. Look at this, you put your wetsuit on, you've done your warm-up, you're lubed up, you get it on, you're standing on the shore, and you need to go for a pee. What do you do?
Jan Sibbersen 1:06:21
Well, I guess you let it go. I'll give you one secret. I've had to do this so far, only once in my life. And that was at Escape from Alcatraz. And everybody is standing on that boat and you're standing there on the side and you're about to jump in 50 some degrees cold water. And suddenly you're like, why is it so warm around your feet? And yeah, and then that makes you jump even faster.
Matt Dixon 1:06:56
Gives you a little bit of core body temperature. A warm-up there. Sounds great. Jan thank you. Thank you so much for your time, you're so generous to go through two episodes with me, and I very much enjoyed it. I want to wish you the best of luck with Sailfish coming into the US. And it's a wonderful story. And you're clearly a great leader, but uh, but I really appreciate it. And I guess everyone wants to know, are you ever gonna go for 45 minutes? Or is that chapter of the book closed?
Jan Sibbersen 1:07:28
That chapter is so closed. So 2018, October 13, was when I broke the record. That was the best day to retire. It can't, it won't get any better, so I made that decision that very moment that day.
Matt Dixon 1:07:44
Good man. What a great way to close the book. And congratulations, once again. Thank you for being on the show. I really appreciate it. I guess my last thing is where can people find you, we'll put you in the show notes of course, but where can people follow along with Sailfish.
Jan Sibbersen 1:08:00
You just go to Sailfish.com and there you have it. There is a US website. There is a global website. If you're in the US, you will be redirected there. You will see what we have there. And we'll keep on adding products as we go.
Matt Dixon 1:08:15
Perfect. Well, best of luck. Thanks so much for your time Jan. I appreciate it.
Jan Sibbersen 1:08:17
Thanks so much, Matt. Really appreciate it too.
Matt Dixon 1:08:24
Guys, thanks so much for joining and thank you for listening. I hope that you enjoyed the new format. You can never miss an episode by simply subscribing. Head to the Purple Patch Channel of YouTube and you will find it there and you could subscribe. Of course, I'd like to ask you if you will subscribe. Also share it with your friends and it's really helpful if you leave a nice positive review in the comments. Now, any questions that you have, let me know. Feel free to add a comment and I will try my best to respond and support you on your performance journey. And in fact, as we commence this video podcast experience, if you have any feedback at all, as mentioned earlier in the show, we would love your help in helping us to improve. Simply email us info@PurplePatchFitness.com or leave it in the comments of the show at the Purple Patch page and we will get you dialed in. We'd love constructive feedback. We are in a growth mindset as we like to call it. And so feel free to share with your friends. But as I said, let's build this together. Let's make it something special. It's really fun. We're really trying hard to make it a special experience and we want to welcome you into the Purple Patch Community. With that, I hope you have a great week. Stay healthy, have fun, keep smiling, doing whatever you do. Take care.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
swim, swimming, swimmer, wetsuit, triathlon, training, race, technique, pool, performance, jan, technique, sailfish, record, week, water, life, ironman, insights, running, kona, champion